Atheism Options

Why didn't you address the fact that I also said Christians believe that Jesus, as God, came to earth as a sacrifice to pay for humanity's transgressions? That doesn't sound like a selfish god to me. Self-sacrifice sounds about the polar opposite of selfishness.

Well guess that's how you view it.

I view it like this:

Almighty God creates the Universe (and apparently concentrates only on Earth), he knew from the VERY beginning what would happen, for he is All-Knowing.
He knew humans would screw it all up (even though HE created us, remember?) and therefore he decides to save us all by being Jesus on our planet.

It's like creating a mess in your friends house and after you've cleaned it you assume that your friend should see you as the incredible good guy and savior.

For the record, I don't think Jesus died on a cross at all.

And even if he did, why go through so much pain and suffering if you could just snap your fingers and forgive all humanity?

Why do you guys praise the image of a guy who's bleeding and screaming in pain on a cross? It's sick and it doesn't make any SENSE at all.

Slavery doesn't imply reciprocal love and communication like a lover-to-lover relationship does. Slavery implies one party is ruler of another, using them as a tool. A slave owner can be compassionate and show kindness to his slaves, but what if they communicated that they wanted to be free people?
If that slave owner was a SLAVE owner, he wouldn't let them go, therefore communication technically fails in a slave-to-owner relationship (Moses led the Israelite slaves out of Egypt after acts of God terrorized the Egyptians into relenting. This really is an exception to the normal circumstances).

If the slave owner is smart he will make his slaves BELIEVE that they are free, when they are not in reality. Therefore, no problems whatsoever in communication.

Of course all is a lie and love is not real IN REALITY, but as long both parties are happy, no one will be asking questions.

I mean, look at yourself. You aren't even asking questions about certain things, you just read the Bible and you say ''Oohh okaay, so that's what happened'', without even telling yourself that it is NOT a history book.

But that's okay, that's EXACTLY how they want you to be.
You're the perfect example of the perfect slave.

Anyone who considers themselves a Christian is, yes, a SERVANT to God. I very much believe this is different than SLAVE.

Think about it.

God wants you to do this and that, God wants you to please him by doing this and that, God wants you to be afraid of him, etc etc. God wants quite a lot, doesn't He?

And what does ''wanting'' mean? It means having an ego.
It means that you serve a selfish God who apparently only cares for Himself and promises you things in return.
Serve me and I will serve you.

My image of a God is one that is not selfish, that does not want, a God who is always there for you and listens to you. He does not judge, he does not bless or curse. He is there, for you whenever you ask.

But the God that the Bible describes sounds more like a Devil. And what happens if you make a deal with the Devil?

You voluntarily give your soul away.

You are selfish yourself, do not forget that, you DO believe because you EXPECT God to protect you and to love you. You believe because you expect presents.
Just keep in mind that the Devil can give you those feelings too...

You're a servant, yet you are a slave, a blind one.

A true and Loving God would not have the need to be served. He would Love you no matter what you do, for you are His creation. You are a part of Him. You are a part of All.
There is no wrong or right about that.
Every creature is a word of God.

The connotations of servant are more human; you would be more inclined to call Alfred a servant to Bruce Wayne, not slave, right? If you decide to say no, you must be looking to contradict me for the sake of saying I'm wrong. The definition of 'slave' even says property, and 'servant' says employee.

I believe that God uses people like me to dispel misunderstanding in His word as best as I can.

There is the word ''uses''. Doesn't that say anything to you?
Misunderstanding in His word? I'm sorry, but you DO know that the Bible can be interpreted in many ways either symbolically and/or literally? And here you are, the only man on earth who Knows His word?

Come on. I know saying that gives you a good feeling and all that, but I'd rather feel bad knowing the truth than feeling good by lying to myself.

I could stop being a Christian any time I want, and nobody would hurt me or anything worse.

Okay good. Could you stop being a Christian for a month?

There are no penalties brought to me in this world if I choose to not believe Christian teaching anymore. God is a god of love and grace, and the only reason people think otherwise is because His followers have done a piss-poor job in showing that, which is my biggest embarrassment as a Christian, and I'm sorry if anyone has been shown anything but love and friendship from a "Christian;" otherwise, that "Christian" was doing a terrible job at living out their beliefs.

Oh yea, I forgot already, you were the only man on earth who knew his word and thus all other people are dead wrong. Wow aren't you just a special guy! I wish I knew you IRL.

I feel bad for your children in the future. Telling them to take myths as the truth and take facts as myths.

Oh yea, and telling them that you are this hero who spreads the word.
Quite the ego if ya´re askin me.

////////////////////

You might think ´´Oh God please forgive this soul for s/he does not know what s/he is saying; s/he does not know´´

But try, even if it is for a second, to really think about what I said.

But try, even if it is for a second, to really think about what I said.

I do want you to know that I'm taking in every single thing you say, but just because I have a rebuttal doesn't mean I'm not listening. I could pray and scream at God out loud for days on end to "forgive his/her soul," but it wouldn't make a difference. Christian teaching says that the sacrifice Jesus made paid for every sin that was, is, and will be committed, and I can't demand God to make you believe anything; it's all on the individual whether or not they want to become Christian. God has laid out everything he has to offer before you decide on believing in Him or not; that's what the Bible says.

I am well aware that the Bible is a historical document and contains innumerable stories and metaphors as a guideline for living. Don't assume anything about the extent of my beliefs just because these topics haven't called for me to explain my whole understanding of being a Christian at once. It calls for a lot. I don't tell myself these things over and over again so I'll believe them myself. I've spent countless nights and days tired from being conflicted in what the world says and what Christianity says. I know those nights and days aren't gonna stop, either. People like you challenge me, dare me to support my belief system, and I say bring it on. I want you to make me think, and think hard; I don't want to waste my time with church on Sundays and youth groups and Bible studies if I find it to be all bullcandy. It hasn't happened yet, though, and not because I'm stubborn or ignorant. You have every right not to believe me as I do you. We haven't talked to the same people, read the same books, experienced the same things. I can't draw a fair conclusion about you and why you believe that God doesn't exist unless I fully know how you've come to your own conclusion.

I know you hate the idea that God allows human imperfection to continue and spawn more hate and other bad things. I know you hate the idea that to be a Christian, you need to submit your life to the laws that the Bible states because your idea of a perfect god is a god that doesn't ask for anything in return for belief in him. I don't know what makes you so bitter towards the idea that God is a true love-driven being.

I actually really like that analogy, but God isn't the one who messed up his friend's house. He built that house for a friend and gave him full reign of that house, hoping he would take care of it. That friend decided it would be better to do what he wanted and the house fell into disrepair. God came over and said he'd clean the house if that friend wanted, but sometimes that friend likes it the way he made it, and sometimes that friend really would like to see the floor under his dirty clothes. The best reaction would be to thank Him for cleaning the house, right? You'd be grateful and want to give something back, right? This is why I willingly participate as a Christian. God is a way out of this dirty world. He offers love and good feeling that doesn't have to be bought, doesn't run out, and won't leave you on the sidelines if you play too slow or make some mistakes, unlike the way the world treats people if they are inadequate. The offer God makes to humanity inspires believers to share this love and give it back. I don't feel obligated. This is not God being a smart slave owner. I can walk away any time I want. I choose not to.

I want to know so damn bad why the world is the way it is and why God created humanity in the first place if he can sustain Himself without us like he did before anything was created. I've lived life without Christianity, and I've lived it as a Christian, and there is a difference. It's not just feeling like you now know where you're going, it's a new way to approach people and activities and ideas, but Christian belief is more than just a new life outlook. There's something deeper than reasoning in everyone that drives them to look for their answers, that drives them to validate themselves with life, that makes it a real and engaging experience. God satisfies this urge, this question of where did we come from and where are we going; I believe this is the soul looking for its wholeness again.

I don't understand God fully, and I said I believe he uses people like me to speak on his behalf not because I have all the answers, but to communicate Him to other people as best as I can, and if you can disprove His existence to me in rebuttal to my explanations, then I will thank and applaud you for saving me from this illusion, but just because I don't understand God, the supposed creator of everything, doesn't mean He's not there. Yes. It's frustrating to not know. But would a man-made God who people don't understand have as many believers in this society, this inquisitive and advanced society, as He does? Your ideal god would be fantastic. It would make life so much easier, and I'm not being sarcastic. It just doesn't make sense to me that if we don't understand completely how this world works and put our faith in it anyway, why we should be able to completely understand its creator before he gets our approval? Just because there is something still left for science to explain doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Marine biologists know barely anything about the blue whale's mating habits but they keep showing up. Hell, they can't say for sure how life for anything began in the first place.

I can see you becoming angrier and angrier with me, but if you didn't see before now that I'm spurring on debate and not a clash of shields and swords with scathing insult contest bonus, I'm sorry for any misdirection. Like I said, make me understand you or even agree with you, but it works better without the bitterness.

But try, even if it is for a second, to really think about what I said.

I do want you to know that I'm taking in every single thing you say, but just because I have a rebuttal doesn't mean I'm not listening. I could pray and scream at God out loud for days on end to "forgive his/her soul," but it wouldn't make a difference. Christian teaching says that the sacrifice Jesus made paid for every sin that was, is, and will be committed, and I can't demand God to make you believe anything; it's all on the individual whether or not they want to become Christian. God has laid out everything he has to offer before you decide on believing in Him or not; that's what the Bible says.

I am well aware that the Bible is a historical document and contains innumerable stories and metaphors as a guideline for living. Don't assume anything about the extent of my beliefs just because these topics haven't called for me to explain my whole understanding of being a Christian at once. It calls for a lot. I don't tell myself these things over and over again so I'll believe them myself. I've spent countless nights and days tired from being conflicted in what the world says and what Christianity says. I know those nights and days aren't gonna stop, either. People like you challenge me, dare me to support my belief system, and I say bring it on. I want you to make me think, and think hard; I don't want to waste my time with church on Sundays and youth groups and Bible studies if I find it to be all bullcandy. It hasn't happened yet, though, and not because I'm stubborn or ignorant. You have every right not to believe me as I do you. We haven't talked to the same people, read the same books, experienced the same things. I can't draw a fair conclusion about you and why you believe that God doesn't exist unless I fully know how you've come to your own conclusion.

I know you hate the idea that God allows human imperfection to continue and spawn more hate and other bad things. I know you hate the idea that to be a Christian, you need to submit your life to the laws that the Bible states because your idea of a perfect god is a god that doesn't ask for anything in return for belief in him. I don't know what makes you so bitter towards the idea that God is a true love-driven being.

I actually really like that analogy, but God isn't the one who messed up his friend's house. He built that house for a friend and gave him full reign of that house, hoping he would take care of it. That friend decided it would be better to do what he wanted and the house fell into disrepair. God came over and said he'd clean the house if that friend wanted, but sometimes that friend likes it the way he made it, and sometimes that friend really would like to see the floor under his dirty clothes. The best reaction would be to thank Him for cleaning the house, right? You'd be grateful and want to give something back, right? This is why I willingly participate as a Christian. God is a way out of this dirty world. He offers love and good feeling that doesn't have to be bought, doesn't run out, and won't leave you on the sidelines if you play too slow or make some mistakes, unlike the way the world treats people if they are inadequate. The offer God makes to humanity inspires believers to share this love and give it back. I don't feel obligated. This is not God being a smart slave owner. I can walk away any time I want. I choose not to.

I want to know so damn bad why the world is the way it is and why God created humanity in the first place if he can sustain Himself without us like he did before anything was created. I've lived life without Christianity, and I've lived it as a Christian, and there is a difference. It's not just feeling like you now know where you're going, it's a new way to approach people and activities and ideas, but Christian belief is more than just a new life outlook. There's something deeper than reasoning in everyone that drives them to look for their answers, that drives them to validate themselves with life, that makes it a real and engaging experience. God satisfies this urge, this question of where did we come from and where are we going; I believe this is the soul looking for its wholeness again.

I don't understand God fully, and I said I believe he uses people like me to speak on his behalf not because I have all the answers, but to communicate Him to other people as best as I can, and if you can disprove His existence to me in rebuttal to my explanations, then I will thank and applaud you for saving me from this illusion, but just because I don't understand God, the supposed creator of everything, doesn't mean He's not there. Yes. It's frustrating to not know. But would a man-made God who people don't understand have as many believers in this society, this inquisitive and advanced society, as He does? Your ideal god would be fantastic. It would make life so much easier, and I'm not being sarcastic. It just doesn't make sense to me that if we don't understand completely how this world works and put our faith in it anyway, why we should be able to completely understand its creator before he gets our approval? Just because there is something still left for science to explain doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Marine biologists know barely anything about the blue whale's mating habits but they keep showing up. Hell, they can't say for sure how life for anything began in the first place.

I can see you becoming angrier and angrier with me, but if you didn't see before now that I'm spurring on debate and not a clash of shields and swords with scathing insult contest bonus, I'm sorry for any misdirection. Like I said, make me understand you or even agree with you, but it works better without the bitterness.

who cares about other peoples beliefs, both of you

who cares about other peoples beliefs, both of you

A forum is a place for discussion of ideas. This is the topic of this particular forum. Why are you not interested in what other people believe and why, and are in a forum specifically created for that very thing?

IKnowAGhost:

I do want you to know that I'm taking in every single thing you say, but just because I have a rebuttal doesn't mean I'm not listening. I could pray and scream at God out loud for days on end to "forgive his/her soul," but it wouldn't make a difference. Christian teaching says that the sacrifice Jesus made paid for every sin that was, is, and will be committed, and I can't demand God to make you believe anything; it's all on the individual whether or not they want to become Christian. God has laid out everything he has to offer before you decide on believing in Him or not; that's what the Bible says.


If the Bible represents God's word, which I strongly disagree with, he has done quite a sucky job at ''laying everything out'', because it is vague to the max and open to many interpretations.

And It's like:
''this is how it is and don't ask why, it's just how it is''

We are grown men and women, we are not children and we have the right to know. To know the why's and how's and not just take it in without asking any questions.

I don't mean asking these questions to the church, but to ask them to yourself and go search for the answers yourself.

You can also ask the church of course and use that in the research. It is important to search in different directions, using different sources. There is no tree or source that contains all knowledge, which we have learned from Eve and the snake.
If you think there is, then you are poisoned.

IKnowAGhost:

I am well aware that the Bible is a historical document and contains innumerable stories and metaphors as a guideline for living. Don't assume anything about the extent of my beliefs just because these topics haven't called for me to explain my whole understanding of being a Christian at once. It calls for a lot. I don't tell myself these things over and over again so I'll believe them myself. I've spent countless nights and days tired from being conflicted in what the world says and what Christianity says. I know those nights and days aren't gonna stop, either. People like you challenge me, dare me to support my belief system, and I say bring it on. I want you to make me think, and think hard; I don't want to waste my time with church on Sundays and youth groups and Bible studies if I find it to be all bullcandy. It hasn't happened yet, though, and not because I'm stubborn or ignorant. You have every right not to believe me as I do you. We haven't talked to the same people, read the same books, experienced the same things. I can't draw a fair conclusion about you and why you believe that God doesn't exist unless I fully know how you've come to your own conclusion.

That's true.
I do have faith in God though, but not the God that is described by the Bible.

IKnowAGhost:

I know you hate the idea that God allows human imperfection to continue and spawn more hate and other bad things. I know you hate the idea that to be a Christian, you need to submit your life to the laws that the Bible states because your idea of a perfect god is a god that doesn't ask for anything in return for belief in him. I don't know what makes you so bitter towards the idea that God is a true love-driven being.

God is not only a love-driven being.

This is where you ignore half of God's existence, half of God's face. He is also a hate-driven being.
He is black and white, good and evil and so on.

IKnowAGhost:

I actually really like that analogy, but God isn't the one who messed up his friend's house. He built that house for a friend and gave him full reign of that house, hoping he would take care of it. That friend decided it would be better to do what he wanted and the house fell into disrepair. God came over and said he'd clean the house if that friend wanted, but sometimes that friend likes it the way he made it, and sometimes that friend really would like to see the floor under his dirty clothes. The best reaction would be to thank Him for cleaning the house, right? You'd be grateful and want to give something back, right? This is why I willingly participate as a Christian.


So God cleaned it up and now he Expects a ''thank you''? Which means he did it for those words instead of just helping? This is really selfish, can you see that?

If you help someone and that someone would not thank you, is that a bad thing from the person who didn't thank you? They have the free will to do what they want.
Just because you think it is appropriate to be worshiped because you chose to help doesn't mean that the other is evil. On the contrary, it means that you are evil and not the other.

Because it means that you helped for yourself, for your own needs, instead of helping the other, their needs.

How can a loving God give us ''free will'' and yet give us two options:

- be thankful and we'll be friends, higher % at a spot in heaven
- do not be thankful and I'll think about it, higher % at a spot in hell

This is not free will, this sounds more like ''an offer you can't refuse''.

Again, a selfish God.

God is a way out of this dirty world. He offers love and good feeling that doesn't have to be bought, doesn't run out, and won't leave you on the sidelines if you play too slow or make some mistakes, unlike the way the world treats people if they are inadequate.

However. You must see Jesus as the ultimate savior, give all your rights up to God and it's holy book and praise the Lord every day with every breath you take.
If you want to end up in Heaven.

I don't call that love, I call that taking away your freedom by blinding you with fake love and fake good feelings.

If it takes an offer from you to please God. Then God is again, a selfish God. Or a devil. Who knows, right.

The offer God makes to humanity inspires believers to share this love and give it back. I don't feel obligated. This is not God being a smart slave owner. I can walk away any time I want. I choose not to.

Then walk away. For a week, a month or a year. Walk away and don't pick the book up.

Can you do that? Or are you afraid? That the all loving God will punish you. Or are you afraid because if you do walk away, there will be a void inside of you?
Because you won't know anymore what to expect?

You don't need to answer that because I know that you won't do it. Because I was there too, I was also afraid. I was growing up with all these beliefs in my head telling me that I may not question these beliefs, that it is dangerous and that there is no need.

But somewhere in me knew that those beliefs were wrong, because I was seeing things that were making me guess if I was doing the ''right'' thing for myself and saw holes in the religion.

I thought that if God truly loves me he would not want me to give myself up to him, that God was okay with me deciding to discover the Universe and especially myself, my true self. And if that meant letting those beliefs go, then that was totally okay.

If you think I made that decision, because it is the easy way out, I can tell you: It was not.
I was afraid and I felt alone when I made that decision, I thought I was letting him go. But I knew I had to do it, I couldn't fool myself anymore by staying in that religion, I had to make that step and it was painful to me. It was only later that I realized that God never left me and always was here and always will be.

I realized that God in a sense does not 'want' or 'need'. I realized that God makes the choices with me.

He is with me with every step I take. Because with every step I take I understand him better.

You don't need these foolish beliefs about what happens in the afterlife or what you should be doing, simply for the fact that you can not know these simply because a book tells you so.

And you will never know these, if you keep holding on your beliefs.

I know, it's hard. You think they are the truth, because that is what is taught to you, but think about why you can't let those beliefs go, ask yourself that.
And try, for once in your life, to not lie to yourself.

You're afraid and that is okay, but the minute you let those beliefs go, you will be free. The question is however; how will you fill this void now? How will you find out what this void really is and what it is that you seek?
And all the other questions that wander through your mind.

Discover the true word of God through your own research.

The Devil wrote the Bible to mislead people like you, don't you think that is possible? What if you end up in hell because you didn't find this out, because you were so lazy to go and search for answers yourself? What if non-Christians go to Heaven, because they didn't fall into those traps?

Didn't the snake promise that the apple would offer something? Just like the Bible offers you a spot in Heaven?

Try not to make the same decision.

I want to know so damn bad why the world is the way it is and why God created humanity in the first place if he can sustain Himself without us like he did before anything was created.

Let me share you what I currently think in a nutshell, which might change any moment due to new data.

I don't think God created us, I think that we are here because we chose to, ourselves. The only reason why we are here is to learn lessons. And we do so, lifetime after lifetime, until we've learned all the lessons available in this kind of world. Then we go somewhere else.
It's a lot more complex than that though, but just to give you an idea.

The reason why the world is how it is, is partly because it is part of Nature. This is ''normal'' in such a world.
And also because psychopaths are ruling our world and making the decisions.

God didn't make us the way you think he did, I think.
Why would a loving God make souls for psychopaths?

That's one of the reasons I said ''no'' to Christianity.
It just doesn't make sense.

I've lived life without Christianity, and I've lived it as a Christian, and there is a difference. It's not just feeling like you now know where you're going, it's a new way to approach people and activities and ideas, but Christian belief is more than just a new life outlook.

That is the trick of the snake. The snake tells you that ''now you know where you're going''

''Eat this apple and you'll have the Knowledge of Good and Evil''
''Read the Bible and be a Christian and you'll know where you're going''

It's exactly the same, only in different words.

All the signs are there IKAG. What is stopping you from seeing them?

The reality is that you do not know. The reality is that you can only think about it.

It's easy to not have to search for answers yourself and just have a book that has all the answers for you.
It's just a way to get your attention. And you gave into it.

There's something deeper than reasoning in everyone that drives them to look for their answers, that drives them to validate themselves with life, that makes it a real and engaging experience. God satisfies this urge, this question of where did we come from and where are we going; I believe this is the soul looking for its wholeness again.

The Bible does not support that. The Bible wants you to nod to everything the Bible says.

I don't understand God fully, and I said I believe he uses people like me to speak on his behalf not because I have all the answers, but to communicate Him to other people as best as I can, and if you can disprove His existence to me in rebuttal to my explanations, then I will thank and applaud you for saving me from this illusion, but just because I don't understand God, the supposed creator of everything, doesn't mean He's not there. Yes. It's frustrating to not know. But would a man-made God who people don't understand have as many believers in this society, this inquisitive and advanced society, as He does?

People are stupid and ignorant. I'm sorry, but that is the reality of today.

Anyone who researches Christianity or other current religions for that matter will know that it is merely a tool to keep you imprisoned.

People don't do research, many people just don't. Because they're either lazy, they're too busy with work and school or they're too busy thinking about themselves. There is just simply no time to think about the most important questions. That's why it's easy to just believe in a religion and have those questions answered for you. That's why Christianity gives you a good feeling, because it gives you the feeling that you are not empty inside anymore, that those questions aren't unanswered anymore.

Unfortunately, those answers could be nothing but lies.

Your ideal god would be fantastic. It would make life so much easier, and I'm not being sarcastic. It just doesn't make sense to me that if we don't understand completely how this world works and put our faith in it anyway, why we should be able to completely understand its creator before he gets our approval?

I don't understand your question, could you perhaps rephrase?

What I meant was. If you would have an idea which has a high probability to be close to the ''truth'' about how all works and why everything is the way it is, you would know God better and your love, whatever you understand with it, would be more real.

How can you love something or someone if you don't even understand or ''know'' it?

Just because there is something still left for science to explain doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Marine biologists know barely anything about the blue whale's mating habits but they keep showing up. Hell, they can't say for sure how life for anything began in the first place.

I can see you becoming angrier and angrier with me, but if you didn't see before now that I'm spurring on debate and not a clash of shields and swords with scathing insult contest bonus, I'm sorry for any misdirection. Like I said, make me understand you or even agree with you, but it works better without the bitterness.

I'm not angry at all. I think I came across like that because I use caps in some words. But I only do that to put emphasis on that particular word. I did it now by making it bold.

Sorry if I came across like that. Don't want you to be uncomfortable in such a way. I'll also keep down the sarcasm-level.

You just did it again. Three more times, actually. You cannot assume anything about me just because I haven't said something about it yet.
You assume I am afraid of something.
You assume I haven't done my own researching.
You assume the Bible is my lifeline and without it I don't have my Christianity.

The Bible is important to Christians, without a doubt. This is what Christians believe is God's true word. As a Christian, I believe that, but because of the way I use my time, sometimes I don't pick up my Bible even once a week. My faith in God isn't because "He gives me all the answers in His book and I'm glad I don't have to look for them myself," my faith in God is majorly from attempting to model my life after the example Jesus left, by the principles He lived by. It feels so right that it makes it easier to believe that the Christian god exists because Jesus is God. I don't just believe; I don't just go through the motions of going to church and "oh, it must be this time! I need to open my Bible now." I have real appreciation and understanding of the God I believe in because I picked up the example He set to look at the world in and tried it on. Being an empathetic, loving, gentle, patient, self-controlled, peaceful, faithful person is something really almost all religions support, it's really the model of being a warm, welcoming person, but the thing that helps drive Christianity home for me is this:
With all other religions, redemption and absolution are achieved after you do good works and live in the name of your god. Christianity is the opposite. God is pursuing people, not people looking god. He came to earth himself as Jesus to reconnect us to him. If you believe in Jesus and His sacrifice, you are saved. Jesus says this; "the only way to the Father is through me." By this standard, all you have to do is believe in Jesus and His sacrifice and you have redemption and absolution. You still believe that this is becoming a slave to God. I know you do. From everything you've been explaining to me, I've come to believe that relinquishing independence like that is slavery to you, like believing in God is a crutch to walk on that you feel you need to keep walking. The works Christians do are not to get into Heaven. They are a response to the love God is showing that even if we can turn away from him, take a bite from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, He still wants to be with us. God is a loving being. I didn't say, in my version of the house analogy, that God was looking for thank yous. I said that would be the most appropriate response. If someone cleaned your whole entire house just because they said they really really really cared about you, would that not touch your heart ? You don't understand love. I don't know who or what you know did that, but you don't understand true love. The fact of the matter is that love is a completely irrational concept. It is attraction beyond physical and emotional boundaries and it seems otherworldly sometimes because it's origin is not of this world.
That being said, the Forbidden Fruit is a perfect example of the Bible's metaphorical attributes. I don't believe the power of learning good and evil was contained in a tree. The action of disobeying God is where all the power came from. The concept of free will didn't condemn humanity, it was the action of Eve, who was tricked by the serpent in her innocence. She never thought about disobeying God until the first one who ever did, Satan, brought his influence to her innocence. Of course I don't believe God is okay with the way things are, but he didn't have to start over because the situation is salvageable. People just decide generation after generation that it's too much work to believe, or they substitute believing in God with other things this world has to offer because they are easier.

And no, I don't think that it's likely the devil wrote the Bible. Where do you believe the devil came from? If you believe in the origin of the devil as that he is the fallen angel Lucifer like I do, then the Bible is still valid as God's word. Lucifer thought he was better than God. He was vain, he was a deceiver, he was turning others against God, and those are evil things. God is a perfect being who will not live in the same place as evil, so Lucifer and his followers were cast out of Heaven so it would be filled only with good again.

It's not just belief in God, you're a "slave" to something in this life, whether you like it or not. I serve the god of Christianity that I have faith in, and you serve the god that you believe in, who from what I've gathered, is everything the Christian god is but doesn't make you feel obligated to love him back with your actions and not just your heart. You need to accept that true love is inspiration as much as unconditional grace and acceptance for who you are. I want to please God because he has pleased me first. God didn't satisfy you with what He offers first, so you don't feel like you need to reciprocate. And that makes the utmost sense, it really does. I do research. I compare other religion to mine, I compare the pros and cons of living a life without religion to life with it.

I'm not stupid or lazy in the way that I want to know the worth behind belief in God. I'm talking to a non-Christian why they believe Christianity is wrong, aren't i? I'm not afraid of putting down my Bible. I'm willing to swear on it that there are those times where I can count on one hand the number of times I study in it in a month. I don't look to answer my questions like yours with it because I definitely agree with you that you can interpret the things it says in more than one way many times, and if you don't believe in what's behind the Bible, then what it has to say is irrelevant anyway. This is why I rely so much more on personal experience than words on a page, but the point exists where faith is faith. That's a fact that can be hard to deal with. We can say "no, I need more, I need more!" as much as we want, but that doesn't mean we'll ever get enough.

You say the answers the Bible gives could all be lies, and you imply it's irrational to love someone or something if you don't understand or "know" it, but I submit to you that your answers could be all lies. Everything anyone has ever known could be lies. That kind of "everything is/could be nothing" standpoint is such a cop-out to me. I'm not saying that this is where you're coming from, but the way you've been presenting your argument against the god of Christianity makes me feel like even though you say you have increasing knowledge of the world around you, you feel like it's never going to be good enough. You said that you believe we learn lessons over lifetimes upon lifetimes, as if even though you might try your absolute hardest for eighty years, you'll never be satisfied with anything.
I refuse to believe that because it affirms my belief that this world is unsatisfying. It will never give you exactly what you want. It seems like God won't either, but that's because He fulfills our needs. People pray to God for money, for objects, for fame. Those things are here and gone in an instant, as countless people demonstrate. People pray for God to heal sickness and injury. It is unspeakably devastating to see a friend or family member suffer from painful disease or injury, I know especially because a friend just passed away last week in a months-long coma after a car accident. It's not fair that a 17 year old girl was taken like that. It hurts me, her family, the rest of her friends. It's not fair because of the pain we feel, the expectations that she would have had such a fulfilling life if it had not happened. I hate the fact that it happened, I know it's valid to mourn her, but I think it's selfish to keep saying "God why You did let her die? We loved her so much!" She will be missed because of the friendly, loving person she was, because of the impact she had on other people, but it's selfish that people want her back because of the way she made THEM feel. Nothing lasts on this earth, and we're so much more sensitive to the time allotted to the best of those things that it feels unfair because we weren't done enjoying them. If she woke up, she faced hardcore brain damage. She would have never been the same. People still would have loved her just as much, but she couldn't respond in the same way she used to. She changed peoples' lives, I know it, and her friendship was something those people needed to see the good in life, but what did she need? It hurts so bad when people are torn from your life, but it's because you stick them there so firmly. I believe she needed to be with God now. That's it. It was her time to experience the utter rapture and peace that is the pure goodness of Heaven and a God that loves her enough and the people around her enough to make sure she would stay on earth long enough to change those peoples' lives for the better. That was what she was born to do. To shower people with friendship and love and goodness.

Most times God's motives don't make sense. But to think that we would be able to understand them, the motives of a perfect being that is outside the confines of this universe that He made, is like a plant trying to understand why I had planted it. If you refuse to believe that there are some things that you cannot know because you don't have the capacity, then you will remain frustrated and ever-searching for those answers. It's not a problem with time or the amount of information you can gather, it's the fact that even if it was staring you straight in the face, you couldn't comprehend it. This is truly a situation of apples and oranges. God is not human. Humans are not supernatural beings.

I would like very much to know where in the Bible it doesn't support the reason we want to search and know things is our soul trying to be whole again, or why the Bible doesn't support that. This is a belief I've formulated from other sources and my own experience with the concepts I've learned from reading the Bible. Why do you say that the Bible doesn't support this belief? My god tells me that I can get closer to Him by learning about Him through His word and other people, and those other people did create the other sources I've searched out.

I really have to say, I can see the thought behind every last thing you rebut me with and I can sense your experience from your diction and presentation, but the way you jump to conclusions about me personally like you have on four separate occasions makes me doubt the levelheaded, unbiased approach to discerning "truths" you want me to believe really is all you think it is. You talk about people believing something because they just want to believe in it, and this supports me thinking that you haven't broken out of that mold. You don't want to be proven wrong about what you're believing yourself that you need to establish me as someone who seems to not know what they're doing, like you found yourself becoming with your experience with Christianity. I'm a musician, a drummer, and I have full knowledge that I'm not the best and I could always, always do better. I know I will never hit the ceiling. If God is alive, He will not be able to fit inside our heads, but just as important as knowing Him is to me, so is knowing that I'm doing the right thing for my life, which means shining a harsh light on the holes that might be in my theology and seeing if they can be plugged. I'm not going to look away and keep filling my relationship with Christ blindly with hope and effort and time if it's all going nowhere.

IKnowAGhost
The Bible is important to Christians, without a doubt. This is what Christians believe is God's true word. As a Christian, I believe that, but because of the way I use my time, sometimes I don't pick up my Bible even once a week. My faith in God isn't because "He gives me all the answers in His book and I'm glad I don't have to look for them myself," my faith in God is majorly from attempting to model my life after the example Jesus left, by the principles He lived by. It feels so right that it makes it easier to believe that the Christian god exists because Jesus is God.

I didnt mean ''Picking up the Bible'' that literally. You are a Christian so you see the Bible as God's word. It's that simple.
Everything can feel right, but just because it feels right, does NOT mean it IS right. Here is where you are fooling yourself, this is not an assumption. It's the cold truth.

If a lie feels good, it doesn't make it truth.

IKnowAGhost
I don't just believe; I don't just go through the motions of going to church and "oh, it must be this time! I need to open my Bible now." I have real appreciation and understanding of the God I believe in because I picked up the example He set to look at the world in and tried it on. Being an empathetic, loving, gentle, patient, self-controlled, peaceful, faithful person is something really almost all religions support, it's really the model of being a warm, welcoming person,

How do you work to become such a person?

IKnowAGhost
but the thing that helps drive Christianity home for me is this:
With all other religions, redemption and absolution are achieved after you do good works and live in the name of your god. Christianity is the opposite. God is pursuing people, not people looking god. He came to earth himself as Jesus to reconnect us to him. If you believe in Jesus and His sacrifice, you are saved. Jesus says this; "the only way to the Father is through me."

Yes. But ''through me'' can mean many things, you know?

IKnowAGhost
By this standard, all you have to do is believe in Jesus and His sacrifice and you have redemption and absolution.

No. That is what you think. It could be a lie. You interpret Jesus' words based on your own experiences and current level of knowledge. His words can be interpreted differently by another person. HOW do you know that your interpretation is the correct one? HOW do you know that what you are reading is the truth at all? Why do you gamble with your soul on the line? Why do you take a ''guess'' at this based on ''how good it feels''? Why? Is it because all other Christians are fooling you that their interpretation is the correct one? The interpretation that most Christians are believing is the correct one? Are you merely following the herd?

IKnowAGhost
You still believe that this is becoming a slave to God. I know you do. From everything you've been explaining to me, I've come to believe that relinquishing independence like that is slavery to you, like believing in God is a crutch to walk on that you feel you need to keep walking. The works Christians do are not to get into Heaven. They are a response to the love God is showing that even if we can turn away from him, take a bite from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, He still wants to be with us. God is a loving being. I didn't say, in my version of the house analogy, that God was looking for thank yous. I said that would be the most appropriate response. If someone cleaned your whole entire house just because they said they really really really cared about you, would that not touch your heart ? You don't understand love.

That is a great dodge at my questions I must say. What do you think about the offer we can't refuse?

What if you don't understand love at all?

Love is not expecting words or an ''appropriate response'' from another. Love is understanding the other, love is being externally considerate to the other. Love is helping people when they ask for it, if they thank or not thank should not be an issue at all. If it's so much about you, then how can you be loving?

Perhaps thanking IS an appropriate response. But to judge us based on that sounds just too selfish.

IKnowAGhost
I don't know who or what you know did that, but you don't understand true love. The fact of the matter is that love is a completely irrational concept. It is attraction beyond physical and emotional boundaries and it seems otherworldly sometimes because it's origin is not of this world.
That being said, the Forbidden Fruit is a perfect example of the Bible's metaphorical attributes. I don't believe the power of learning good and evil was contained in a tree. The action of disobeying God is where all the power came from. The concept of free will didn't condemn humanity, it was the action of Eve, who was tricked by the serpent in her innocence. She never thought about disobeying God until the first one who ever did, Satan, brought his influence to her innocence. Of course I don't believe God is okay with the way things are, but he didn't have to start over because the situation is salvageable. People just decide generation after generation that it's too much work to believe, or they substitute believing in God with other things this world has to offer because they are easier.

Believing is probably the easiest thing one can do. How hard is it to believe in Jesus as the savior and acting like you love everyone and everything without even understanding them?

IKnowAGhost
And no, I don't think that it's likely the devil wrote the Bible. Where do you believe the devil came from? If you believe in the origin of the devil as that he is the fallen angel Lucifer like I do, then the Bible is still valid as God's word. Lucifer thought he was better than God. He was vain, he was a deceiver, he was turning others against God, and those are evil things. God is a perfect being who will not live in the same place as evil, so Lucifer and his followers were cast out of Heaven so it would be filled only with good again.

It's so funny. Why do you read it so literally? Do you really think there is a guy named Lucifer? Seriously.

What if we are Lucifer? What if we, because we gave in to the temptation of ''eating of the forbidden fruit'', fell? And ''broke into many pieces''? What if we are those pieces? We, the human race, are Lucifer? We are all selfish beings, you know. What do you think?

I'm not sure 'where' the Devil came from and I don't think that interests me much. I do think that the Devil likes to control you and likes to trick you. And mostly he gets away with what he wants, because he plays with your emotions. He offers you something and you can either say yes, no or nothing at all. Most people say ''yes''. Just like you did. And now you made a deal.
You can ask yourself why you did it. Exactly. Because it felt good. It felt right.

There's something crucial though. The Devil lies. So the deal you made is nothing but a lie. But you gave into to it, because it felt right, it felt as the truth, as true love, as a gift, as a blessing, even better: you don't view it as making a deal at all!
It gave you all these positive thoughts and feelings, because that's all you wanted, because you are selfish and greedy. The Devil uses your greed against you. And many times he wins.

That's why using the intellect, doing research etc. etc. is so important. Because only then can we see the ''devil in the details''. The Devil may come in many shapes and forms... and it can make you feel very good inside. It's like the wolf dressed in sheep's clothing.

What better way to lie and let people make deals with you without them even knowing it by writing a book and then claiming that it's God's word? By telling them to be afraid. By telling them how many benefits it has to accept the word. To lie about some things and to say the truth about other things. As long as they feel good and stay ignorant, they will not notice it and actually think that this book is the truth and nothing but the truth!

What if the truth is that the Bible does not carry the truth? What if Jesus left us a hint by saying that: the truth shall set us free , what if he meant that the truth is not there where we think it is? That it is NOT in the Bible, but rather scattered all over the place, like puzzle pieces? And only when we finish the puzzle to a great extent, when we get to the truth ourselves, perhaps then will we be really free.

That is not what the Devil wants you to think. No. He wants you to think that by being a Christian, as we know today, you will be free. When you are actually not. How clever is that?

Think about it.

(And with ''the Devil'' I don't mean one person or creature. And imo, the Devil is not Lucifer)

I also don't understand how God can be perfect and yet cannot live in the same place as evil. If he cannot do something, if he has some kind of ''disability'', whatever that is, it would imply that he is imperfect.

IKnowAGhost
It's not just belief in God, you're a "slave" to something in this life, whether you like it or not. I serve the god of Christianity that I have faith in, and you serve the god that you believe in,

No I do not serve in the way you think I do.

IKnowAGhost
who from what I've gathered, is everything the Christian god is but doesn't make you feel obligated to love him back with your actions and not just your heart.

I do not feel obligated indeed. I chose to love him back through understanding and knowledge. With my actions and with my heart.

You need to accept that true love is inspiration as much as unconditional grace and acceptance for who you are. I want to please God because he has pleased me first. God didn't satisfy you with what He offers first, so you don't feel like you need to reciprocate. And that makes the utmost sense, it really does. I do research. I compare other religion to mine, I compare the pros and cons of living a life without religion to life with it.

So selfish. Why do you compare the pros and cons and not whether they're lies or the truth?

I'm not stupid or lazy in the way that I want to know the worth behind belief in God. I'm talking to a non-Christian why they believe Christianity is wrong, aren't i?

Research = reading many books, comparing the information, speaking to people who have read the same books, connecting the dots yourself, trying to view everything starting with an empty cup without letting your feelings control you.

A simple debate surely might fall under research, but don't see this as true work, though. Research is hard work that takes much energy and time. Things we mostly do not have, which is beneficial to those who are controlling you.

I'm not afraid of putting down my Bible. I'm willing to swear on it that there are those times where I can count on one hand the number of times I study in it in a month. I don't look to answer my questions like yours with it because I definitely agree with you that you can interpret the things it says in more than one way many times, and if you don't believe in what's behind the Bible, then what it has to say is irrelevant anyway. This is why I rely so much more on personal experience than words on a page, but the point exists where faith is faith. That's a fact that can be hard to deal with. We can say "no, I need more, I need more!" as much as we want, but that doesn't mean we'll ever get enough.

You say the answers the Bible gives could all be lies, and you imply it's irrational to love someone or something if you don't understand or "know" it, but I submit to you that your answers could be all lies.

Actually. I think they are close to the truth.
Go the Christianity thread and read all the contradictions that are there in the Bible. Clear ones.

Everything anyone has ever known could be lies. That kind of "everything is/could be nothing" standpoint is such a cop-out to me. I'm not saying that this is where you're coming from, but the way you've been presenting your argument against the god of Christianity makes me feel like even though you say you have increasing knowledge of the world around you, you feel like it's never going to be good enough. You said that you believe we learn lessons over lifetimes upon lifetimes, as if even though you might try your absolute hardest for eighty years, you'll never be satisfied with anything.

What is ''satisfied''? I learn constantly and it's fun. I have no hurry at all and I'm just going with the flow with my goals in my mind. I don't accept having faith in things that do not make sense or at least have some data to back it up.

Christianity that is known today is nothing but a bad joke.

That was what she was born to do. To shower people with friendship and love and goodness.

What was a 7 year old boy born to do when he dies after being raped and then choked to death? Why is the world so unfair? Can your religion explain that to me? Why did God started all of this? Does he like to play games with lives? Does he like to see suffering and happiness? He made our souls. He knew from the very beginning when he made the Universe that that little boy will suffer a painful and slow death and YET he still made it? Why?

Most times God's motives don't make sense. But to think that we would be able to understand them, the motives of a perfect being that is outside the confines of this universe that He made, is like a plant trying to understand why I had planted it.

That's such a good excuse. But your excuse does not make sense at all. The Bible describes your God as someone who wants to be worshiped, who has needs, and who wants to be scary. What's so perfect about that? And how is ''understanding God's motives'' a difficult thing if we have the Bible and our observations in this world?

God's motive, based on those two things:
- He did it all because it all feeds his own needs.

A selfish God.

If you refuse to believe that there are some things that you cannot know because you don't have the capacity, then you will remain frustrated and ever-searching for those answers. It's not a problem with time or the amount of information you can gather, it's the fact that even if it was staring you straight in the face, you couldn't comprehend it. This is truly a situation of apples and oranges. God is not human. Humans are not supernatural beings.

God is not human, indeed! So stop describing him as a human! As someone who Needs, as someone who Feels and Sees and Experiences, who Judges the way we do etc etc.
God does not do these things like we do!

And my assumptions about you is based on my observation of how a Christian thinks in a certain way.
You're just not seeing it the way I'm seeing it.

I think believing in Jesus, God and praying are all good things, as long as you forget all those things around them which the Bible tries to put in your head. If Christianity was a good thing, there would be for examle no Christian Crusades.
Knowing that you take the Bible as the truth - this is not an assumption, it is merely so, otherwise you would not call yourself a 'Christian' - tells me how you think.

But as always, I could be wrong and if I am, I apologize.

I would like very much to know where in the Bible it doesn't support the reason we want to search and know things is our soul trying to be whole again, or why the Bible doesn't support that. This is a belief I've formulated from other sources and my own experience with the concepts I've learned from reading the Bible. Why do you say that the Bible doesn't support this belief? My god tells me that I can get closer to Him by learning about Him through His word and other people, and those other people did create the other sources I've searched out.

I really have to say, I can see the thought behind every last thing you rebut me with and I can sense your experience from your diction and presentation, but the way you jump to conclusions about me personally like you have on four separate occasions makes me doubt the levelheaded, unbiased approach to discerning "truths" you want me to believe really is all you think it is. You talk about people believing something because they just want to believe in it, and this supports me thinking that you haven't broken out of that mold. You don't want to be proven wrong about what you're believing yourself that you need to establish me as someone who seems to not know what they're doing, like you found yourself becoming with your experience with Christianity. I'm a musician, a drummer, and I have full knowledge that I'm not the best and I could always, always do better. I know I will never hit the ceiling. If God is alive, He will not be able to fit inside our heads, but just as important as knowing Him is to me, so is knowing that I'm doing the right thing for my life, which means shining a harsh light on the holes that might be in my theology and seeing if they can be plugged. I'm not going to look away and keep filling my relationship with Christ blindly with hope and effort and time if it's all going nowhere.

All I have to say is, if you ever have a day off, then do this if you choose to:

- stand up and challenge your beliefs
- go to:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/lewis/lewun01.htm
- read it and think about it, critically, don't let your emotions get in the way

I'm a gnostic atheist, not to be confused with agnosticism. I was raised in a religious home to very religious parents, though that didn't last too long. My parents believe they have failed as parents seeing as 2 of the 5 children they had are atheist and one agnostic, the other 2 are firm believers or so they claim. I first began questioning simple questions from the judeo-christian god, which were my parents beliefs. I see the reasons why there is a consistent need for religion in society and yet, there isn't one. My beliefs are simple, do as you wish, have morals, and be a good person, overall. Should I be damned for all eternity because I didn't believe in the correct deity? Monotheism has become more dominant than it's ancestor; Polytheism. I have many, many, questions to ask creationists, and these questions are difficult to answer. You could try googling it, or reading on it; I have the document saved. Although it's lengthy, it's still a brilliant questionnaire.

Example. If your God is omniscient and omnipotent, why did he create humans in the first place? Surely he would have known that we would eat from the tree of knowledge and cause eternal damnation for the rest of the human race. And you can also state how was Eve to know it was "bad" she couldn't fathom what it meant, they were pure, and clueless. Thus creating laws that we will be unable to gain entrance into heaven, then ultimately come to earth via Mary and being crucified, and save the sinners, that could have all been completely avoided. Or take the example of Cain and Abel. After Cain kills Abel, God asks Abel where his brother is, isn't this a contradiction that he isn't omnipresent, since he is everywhere, yet he asks Cain where his brother is.

All I have to say is, if you ever have a day off, then do this if you choose to:

- [/b]read it and think about it, critically, don't let your emotions get in the way

Pookie, you are definitely a bright individual. I would like to think I'm also an intelligent person, which is why I feel like this exchange could go on forever. We're following the same kinds of questions, but we're going different ways in doing so, and the things we're discovering along the way affirm the answers we're formulating. I'm nowhere near done with that link yet because of time constraints, but I want to say that it really is a compelling read and I do try my very best to objectively approach any type of information I review.
I expect you to reply to this and I want to see what you say but I want to make this my own last post on our debating. And I mean you really will have the last word if you so choose.
I do and have for a long time realized that the Bible is majorly metaphorical. I can understand you would have issues with the Bible being a historical marker, but if there was anything you would possibly reconsider, I would hope it would be your understanding of God's love. It's not selfish because Christians want to give back love in feeling and action. That is a response to love. I didn't say God was looking for thank yous. I didn't say he was looking for anything. I said he really really really cared about that friend he gave that house to and wanted to clean it for him if he allowed God to. I hoped this would imply that God wants to do this regardless of what this friend would do, but it seems like when I said the appropriate response would be to acknowledge this as a great gift and friendship and thank Him for it, you assumed that this means that's what God is really looking for because that's the first thing I said I'd do. That's how I respond to compassion from anyone, though. When I give compassion, I'm not looking for recognition. I'm doing it because I know it will make someone feel good, and showing love to people makes me feels good, too. This is the kind of love that God really does emanate. The book Hosea says God told Hosea to take a prostitute as a wife, and when she inevitably went out to continue her job, God told him to go to her and show her the love that He has for the Israelites, love that waits for them even though they turn to other gods and put their love in other things.

I won't ever disagree with you about the fact that terrible, terrible things happen in this world, and it's not fair that if God truly is loving and just and perfect that these terrible things exist. The thing is with your example of the 7 year old child, just as much as it's terrible for the child to experience that, it's terrible that his murderer had to experience a life that led him to the decision that doing those things is acceptable by any standard. That's not an excuse for him to keep doing what he does, but if he had faith in a god that inspires love, would he have done what he did? The Crusades... I just don't know. I don't know exactly how to word how completely wrong that was. The main purpose was essentially imperialism. The only place God is concerned about occupying is in our hearts, and despite how cliche that may sound, that's the truth. Recovering the Holy Land was a man's idea; the Bible doesn't say anywhere that God puts enough importance on things like land in this world that he'd ask his followers do die for it, and the Crusades to combat and convert the Muslim people were executed completely backasswards for what they wanted to accomplish. God says love your neighbor, and that doesn't say only if this or unless that, He says love your neighbor. People are the ones who hold prejudices and intolerance. It's understandable that misconception of God's words originates in the actions of His followers because that's really how His message is spread, but attempting to spread God's influence through hate and fighting and force is wrong. God is persistent, which should be taken with the connotations of a constant presence, but He's not merciless. You can't make a friend by being an enemy, and that's what the Crusades were a stupid attempt at doing.

I'm open to interpretation on almost anything, but I am going to stay adamant in my believe that you're wrong about God's love being selfish. I don't know how you can tell me that I shouldn't say God has human emotional quality and continue to say God is selfish, though. Even if you were going with my lead but neglected to tell me so. God is not human, indeed, but I believe we are made in the likeness of Him, meaning we have emotion because God does, we are social because God is. I believe in the trinity of God which would support this. The big difference is that if the god I believe in is true, then everything about Him is perfect and therefore his love is truly and wholly selfless, which is supernatural in the way that many times humans give love and compassion expecting something in return, where God's love is there just because He loves us, with no other motives. This is why I love God and search to support my Christian spirituality. There's no other religion where the god tries to draw closer to the followers. The message of Christianity is God sent Jesus to repair the connection between Him and humanity because He loves everyone just because he can. The reaction is up to the individual, but that is the message Christianity is founded on, regardless if followers do a good job sharing the unconditional love and grace Christ stands for or not.

Example. If your God is omniscient and omnipotent, why did he create humans in the first place? Surely he would have known that we would eat from the tree of knowledge and cause eternal damnation for the rest of the human race. And you can also state how was Eve to know it was "bad" she couldn't fathom what it meant, they were pure, and clueless. Thus creating laws that we will be unable to gain entrance into heaven, then ultimately come to earth via Mary and being crucified, and save the sinners, that could have all been completely avoided. Or take the example of Cain and Abel. After Cain kills Abel, God asks Abel where his brother is, isn't this a contradiction that he isn't omnipresent, since he is everywhere, yet he asks Cain where his brother is.

Pookie and I touched on a good amount of those things if you really would like any attempts at answers, just read farther into the thread. Yeah, there's a lot in each of our replies, but we all know that there's a lot to say about these subjects.

And Pookie, I would like to challenge you to listen to this sermon from a pastor I listen to sometimes. Only if you believe that I'm examining your link that you gave me. I am making my way through that text, piece by piece because of the way my schedule has been developing this month, but I'm going read a lot of it, and I would like you to believe that. I believe if you want to understand something in its entirety, one side isn't the only way to approach it from, and that's why I am taking your challenge to me to read that text objectively, to be fair to all aspects of the truths or lies that Christianity might entail or not.
Here, titled "Is Faith the Enemy of Reason?":

http://ccobtv.org/podcast/meyer022408.mp3

This is one message in a whole apologetic-style series, so if you do decide to listen to this and think about looking more at this aspect of Christianity like I am thinking about looking into as much of The Bible Unmasked as I can, here is where you can see more:
http://ccobtv.org/search.php?series_id=66&...category=Sermon

We will both have the last word IKAG.

There is one thing every human being has the right to do and in my opinion, something that is needed in order to find possible answers, and that is having doubts.

I do not want to be a part of a religion that asks me to believe and to have no doubts. I also would feel very uncomfortable to worship a book that makes little sense.

Someone once said:

“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.”

That's how I think as well about your religion.

Though I will listen to that file you sent me.

There is a new religion coming up and I´m going to be a part of that.
An ancient religion reborn again.